Mary Gauthier

“A song full of adjectives sucks. You need to have a little movie. There has to be motion and movement, not description. Too much description, and I'm lost.”

Songs are little stories, says Mary Gauthier, but the process of getting those stories down is not easy.

This, my friends, is a clinic on songwriting.

Mary Gauthier was nominated for a Grammy for Best Folk Album in 2018 for Rifles and Rosary Beads, a stunning album in which each song is co-written with military veterans and their families to share their stories. She has too many accolades to count, and her new music invariably ends up on all those "best of" lists at the end of the year.

But as you’ll read, songwriting does not come easy to Gauthier. She says that “songwriting is an ordeal for me; sometimes it's just not pleasant. It's hard.” (Appropriately, there are a few fishing metaphors in our conversation.) Gauthier is critical almost to a fault of her songwriting process, but I think that’s a good thing because this self-reflection allows her to fine tune her process. She calls herself out a few times in our interview for overthinking her songs, which slows her. And when things aren’t working, she goes on the writer’s walk: a five mile walk that clears her head and gives her “productive exhaustion.” It’s on these walks that she’s often able to solve her struggles. Unfortunately, Gauthier is at her most productive in a hotel room, so time off the road has made the process even more challenging.

Gauthier lives in Nashville and has a memoir slated for publication next year

Read my interview with Mary Gauthier, and you can watch it below as well. The transcription is edited for length and clarity.

Do you try to write every day?

A

I think I would flip it and say that reading is really important for songwriters. I'm surrounded by books. I've literally got thousands of books everywhere. I'm becoming almost a hoarder. I believe in buying books, consuming books, marking up books, owning books. I want my books to look like my guitar. I want them to look well-read. Consuming words and stories is very helpful. I only wrote a book in all honesty because I was offered a chance to do so by a publisher. I wouldn't have written it and pitched it to a publisher. I'm not that disciplined.

I look at authors as the real rock stars, just because of the level of difficulty in writing a good book. I don't write a lot outside of songwriting. I am in love with language, but I'm very concise. I'm a songwriter, so it's very hard to write a paragraph; I write a good sentence and feel like I'm done.

Who are some of your favorite authors?

A

I've been invited to do a show on NPR that pairs a songwriter with an author. I chose Odie Lindsey, an author and teacher at Vanderbilt here in Nashville, but he's also a veteran. And I think he writes women as well as Wally Lamb, who's one of my friends and one of my favorite authors. It's very beautiful the way he writes female veterans. Odie's got a new book out written from the viewpoint of a female veteran. I'll get through that quickly.

I've just got so much backlog. Sue Monk Kidd's got two books I haven't read. I haven't read the Donna Tartt book that I bought. I've got mountains of books and I've got major catching up to do. It's impossible to pick a favorite. I'm all over the place. I love both fiction and nonfiction. I love travelogues. I've never been home this long in my entire career. Our last show was March 14th. I'm thinking of Kurt Vonnegut and Slaughterhouse Five, like we're going to come out from the bomb shelter and see what's left.

That could be one of my favorite books. He comes up a lot with songwriters, as does Bukowski, Cormac McCarthy, and Raymond Chandler. So why do you think it’s important for songwriters to read?

A

Songs are little stories, and you've got to master the art of storytelling and how better to do it than to read the master storytellers? We're working with a melody paired with language, so we've got to have an understanding of 25 ways to say the same thing and then pick the best way to say it. When I read great writing, it makes me a better writer.

When you read those novels, what in their languages influences you?

A

A song full of adjectives sucks. You need to have a little movie. There has to be motion and movement, not description. Too much description, and I'm lost. Serious songwriters do that. They capture what I think of as a little movie in three and a half, four and a half minutes. They can do what it takes 600 pages for novelists to do. That's my goal. It's aspirational. I don't always get there, but I've gotten there a couple of times. And when I do, it is cause for celebration.

“I can edit myself right out of an idea if I overthink it too much, and I’ll ruin it. The challenge is to catch and release. Overthinking really slows down the process, and I’m guilty of it a lot.”

Do you do any journal writing?

A

Not anymore. I used to, and I return to that form when I'm in a lot of pain. I certainly wrote in my journal after the election in 2016, I mean, I look at it now, and there was a part of me that knew we'd end up here. The reason most of us who cried were crying wasn't because we lost the election. It was because we lost something far, far bigger. When I'm in grief, I'll journal. When I'm in big emotion, I'll journal, but when I'm kind of cruising along, no. I turn to the page when I'm hurting. And I’ll go back to them later for validation that my gut works.

When do you go back to them?

A

Usually not too often. But if I'm thinking about something too much and I need to change from thinking to feeling, I have to convince myself that my brain isn't as important as my solar plexus. It's a toggle as an artist. I use my intellect a lot, but I know that the power of what I do doesn't come from my head. It's definitely a deeper knowing. And sometimes I have to go back in and remember that the deeper knowing is with me and it works really well. I don't need to overthink things.

Speaking of overthinking, do you do a lot of revising?

A

I go over it and over it and over it and over it. As I've gotten older, most of the time I know when to let it go, but I've been working on a song now for two years and I just don't have it yet. And it's a matter of not giving up. It's not like I want to abandon it, because I know there’s a good song in there. But I can edit myself right out of an idea if I overthink it too much, and I'll ruin it.

Oftentimes, the gut/head balance is a challenge for me. I think the ego is attached to the intellect, and the gut is more childlike. My favorite artists like Neil Young just go with their gut and they don't let the ego overtake. I like that a lot. They're willing to put out songs that aren't the best songs they've ever written; they put out songs because they're songwriters, and they don't have to make a statement every time they put a song. The challenge is to catch and release. Overthinking really slows down the process, and I'm guilty of it a lot.

What tells you that you’re overthinking?

A

When I'm banging my head against the desk, literally in frustration, I know that I've taken it too far. Then I have to go take a walk. I learned a while back to take the writer’s walk: just get to the park, hit the five miles. I'll probably get there this afternoon. If I can get to the park before sunset, I'll walk for two hours. Then I can come back with a productive exhaustion that is better than sitting here with a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus. All that frustration and aggravation and impatience is not good. I've got to wear myself down. Songwriting is an ordeal for me; sometimes it's just not pleasant. It's hard. And yet when you get one and it's a good one, it's worth all the struggle to get there.

From our Zoom interview!

Let’s talk about walking. Is it a daily thing for you, and do you use it specifically when you’re stuck?

A

It's a daily thing, but I also know that if I'm trying to work out a song, the rhythm of my feet helps. It does something in my subconscious as I'm walking. Sometimes the answer comes right up and I think, Walking wins again. It gets my conscious mind off of it, but my subconscious is still working it and my conscious mind can hear the melody. So I'm in the melody, but I'm trying to not say the words. The words are probably going around anyway somewhere subconsciously, and every now and then it just pops right out of my mouth.

I don't know how that works. It's one of the great joys of being a songwriter too, to know that it does work. It's mystical. Guy Clark used to build guitars, but he didn't build guitars because he wanted guitars. He built guitars because that was part of his songwriting process. Those songs were working themselves out while he was shaving on the neck and working the woodwork.

You obviously have more time now that you aren’t touring. Do you find that large expanses of time make you more productive, or is it harder to work without deadlines?

A

I do much better with discipline. I've had to retrain myself because I've been doing over 125 dates every year for the last 20 years, except for this year. I trained myself to write in hotel rooms, and I miss that a lot. John Prine wrote his last record in a hotel room; his wife put him in the hotel room in Nashville next to the country music hall of fame. When he got sick of staring at the page, he could walk on over to the hall of fame and visit the lyric sheets. For me, if I'm not getting anywhere with songs right now, I'm real tempted to just get a hotel room.

That's part of my ritual. Sitting here at my desk at home is not how I write songs because of the travel life that I've lived. I'll sit at a hotel room desk for 12 hours. I'll order coffee and get room service. Sitting here at home is not my deal, and I don't know how to make it my deal. I guess I'm gonna have to. I've written three songs since the shutdown in March, so I'm going to have to impose deadlines or myself or just go get a hotel room.

It's like having a fish: you gotta keep reeling. Time actually disappears, and it's not something that I'm overthinking.

Do you use a pen and paper or a computer when you write lyrics?

A

Computer. I love to cut and paste. Somebody sent me a typewriter, a gorgeous typewriter from like 1946. Beautiful. And my hands aren't even strong enough to punch the keys. I'm used to this system now and it works for me.

How do you know when a song is done?

A

Well, my answer used to be, "When I'm willing to play it in front of Guy Clark," but guy's gone now. So I think I have to love it. I have to believe in it and love it and be proud of it and feel like there's not a word in it that I couldn't look an audience in the eye and sing. If there's doubt, I'm not there yet. I need to not have doubt.

They also can't be clever. I can't stand clever. I need to be honest, not clever. When something is clever, it may sound good but it doesn't mean anything.

How does the process typically start for you?

A

I try to start with the title because that gives me something to aim for. I learned in Nashville that a lot of folks around here start with the title, and that's a great place to start. Because now I know what the bullseye is. Oftentimes the title becomes a line and I need a new title, but it gives me a starting spot.

A few songwriters, probably those who have been around the longest, have told me that you have to write through all the crappy songs first before you can get to the gems. Is that true?

A

Yes. You gotta write the little songs first. Those songs are rungs on the ladder that get you to the songs that have more substance. If you're not willing to write the little songs, that may present itself as a block. I mean, I don't present most of the songs that I write.

Do you get writer’s block, and if so, are there tricks you use to get out of that rut?

A

I don't think about writer's block. I don't force myself to write if I'm not feeling it. I can go a long time without writing, and I don't get worried about it. I don't put that kind of pressure on myself. I just know that every couple of years I need to have a record to keep my career going. So far since I've been doing this, every couple of years I've managed to come up with 10 or 11 songs that I feel are at the standard that I demand of myself. And I'm willing to put them into the world on a record. Because I'm such a heavy reader, I'm always able to refuel the tank with ideas.

I feel like I know the answer to this, but do you prefer ebooks or hard copy when you read?

A

Hard copy. I just love books. But I'm not into vinyl like other people are. And I know I'm probably shooting myself in the foot to say it, but I used to like vinyl when I got high. I'd sit down on the couch, drop the needle and get high with the music. But I'm sober now. Also, I tend to move a lot faster than I did when I was stoned. I connected vinyl with weed, but I disconnected when I got sober.

You mentioned this briefly earlier, but what are you reading now?

A

I'm reading The Way is Made by Walking by Paul Boers. It takes place in Spain, and it's about a long walk that hundreds of pilgrims do at a time. They stay in youth hostels and eat community meals. Their feet get all blistered and there's a lot of suffering involved, but there's a great deal of self-reflection. I'm loving this book because of the motion and the journey while I'm stranded at home.

It's a Christian pilgrimage. That's not my deal at all, but I love the word sojourner and I love the word pilgrim, and I love the wayfaring stranger archetype. He's speaking to that in me because it's the exact opposite of what we're experiencing right now. That's the magic of books: they bring you to another reality.